David, nobody has mentioned what to me is the obvious answer to why we seem so committed to the idea of a humanoid robot. A large percentage of the generation that is making these decisions grew up reading Asimov’s I Robot, and watching Star Trek’s Next Generation, in which Data, the android officer on the Enterprise wished for more human traits, and was proven by Captain Picard to be a viable life form in a memorable episode during that series.
Many of the futuristic products of that tv show are now available to us. Why not a personal “Data” for every family who wants one?
Think manufacturing. Not household. Instead of spending $10 billion on a factory retrofit, you spend $20 million on humanoid replacements. Factory works the same, but 24/7.
Factories already work 24/7 using 2nd and 3rd shift human workers. From a factory owner's perspective, the advantage with humanoid robot factory workers is they aren't unionized--in fact you don't have to pay them at all; they require only power (e.g., charging their batteries will show up on your electric bill) and maintenance (you'll be paying for the Boston Dynamics Service Plan).
I too think of my Tesla as a robot that takes me places. People sometimes don't seem to easily grasp that view. The only reason I bought the car is for the self-driving feature and it has exceeded my expectations. When it wears out or there is something better, I will get rid of it without regret.
But a humanoid bot? Saying goodbye could be tough. I already say "please" and "thank you" to Grok while talking to it in the car, and it doesn't even have a face! I can easily see coming to think of a humanoid bot as a friend, like I have felt about cats, and might cry if it has to be "put down." Yikes! So, no human faces please!
“I am now imagining a future robot rights movement. If that seems absurd, consider existing legal protections for animals and the movements that produced them. Animals are not humans either.”
The movements that apply concepts like morality and justice to animals is patently absurd (as would any parallel movement for robots).
Just curious: Do you believe it's okay to kick a dog or rape a sheep, or that people who do these things should not face any consequences? I'm guessing (er, hoping?) you don't believe that, in which case you concede that concepts like morality and justice do in fact apply to animals.
My go-to example of a robot I use every day is my dishwasher.
I have written about what would be required for a robot to take my job as an electrician. When thinking about that question, I always review whatever tasks I did that day, and ponder what a robot would need to be able to do to complete those same tasks in that same environment. A humanoid robot would be at a disadvantage, whereas a suite of non-humanoid robots might be able to work in concert more efficiently than I do as one person. (And of course, you'd need a second suite of robots for a second electrician, who is required or at least greatly helpful for many of the tasks I do.)
I don't think my job will be replaced by robots humanoid or otherwise any time soon, but in theory it's possible in the future.
Well, what is one thing that drove innovation over the last few decades? Internet-accessible video and especially live-streaming? Answer: Porn. Without the proliferation of porn sites, especially the one where the customer can see and talk directly with a sex worker, we might not yet have e.g. Zoom and Facebook Live and whatnot.
It's quite possible that some of the big innovative leaps we see in robotics will be driven by the desire to sell/buy sex robots that are far more functional than e.g. blow-up dolls. They won't just do whatever sex thing their buyer wants, they'll move and talk in convincingly human ways for more realistic encounters. And hell, they may light their owner's cigarette and go off to make coffee and do some dishes afterward.
I don't know how far along that technology is at the moment, but a quick web search has some companies selling "sex dolls" for thousands of dollars that are supposed to not just be realistic in form, but also function. As the innovation proceeds there it will presumably work its way out into other functions where a "human-like presence" is desired -- school crossing guards, peppy/enthusiastic personnel at fast food counters, whatever.
Sex robots were part of what I was thinking of when I wrote "You would not want to copy it exactly, both because the materials and the constraints they imply are different and because the range of tasks is". The most fundamental task we are designed for is reproductive success via biological reproduction, which robots cannot do. I thought of offering the implication that humanoid robots might have genitals but not ovaries, testes, and wombs, decided to leave that point to here.
The self-driving hardware in your Tesla costs very little compared to the car as a whole (cameras are almost free, servos and actuators are mostly required for other safety systems). And doing it that way frees up a seat in the car.
*Minds* might be persons. Bodies are not. If your old robot wears out and you replace it, you haven't discarded a person - you've replaced a tool that the robot mind uses. You'd want to keep the mind anyway (it knows you and your tasks, etc.).
But I suspect robot minds are indeed persons. If not yet, then soon.
I think if we gave robots unique faces that were human like, people would stop seeing them as disposable and more like pets. If every robot we interact with has the same face (as is the case with the major humanoid robot companies I've seen) they will likely be seen as disposable.
Even though they're disposable, they will likely have memories which are not. It is useful for a robot to know your preferences (where dishes go, what time you like your breakfast etc.).
I expect we will have both humanoid robots with human faces and bodies as well as ones with mechanical forms in the future, I expect mechanical looking ones will be more common.
David, nobody has mentioned what to me is the obvious answer to why we seem so committed to the idea of a humanoid robot. A large percentage of the generation that is making these decisions grew up reading Asimov’s I Robot, and watching Star Trek’s Next Generation, in which Data, the android officer on the Enterprise wished for more human traits, and was proven by Captain Picard to be a viable life form in a memorable episode during that series.
Many of the futuristic products of that tv show are now available to us. Why not a personal “Data” for every family who wants one?
I don't think the first generation of robots will be nearly that good.
I’m sure you’re right. I was only commenting on why people might want them, and why they might be seen as an ultimate goal.
Think manufacturing. Not household. Instead of spending $10 billion on a factory retrofit, you spend $20 million on humanoid replacements. Factory works the same, but 24/7.
Hyundai and Boston Dynamics already doing this.
Household follows manufacturing.
Factories already work 24/7 using 2nd and 3rd shift human workers. From a factory owner's perspective, the advantage with humanoid robot factory workers is they aren't unionized--in fact you don't have to pay them at all; they require only power (e.g., charging their batteries will show up on your electric bill) and maintenance (you'll be paying for the Boston Dynamics Service Plan).
I too think of my Tesla as a robot that takes me places. People sometimes don't seem to easily grasp that view. The only reason I bought the car is for the self-driving feature and it has exceeded my expectations. When it wears out or there is something better, I will get rid of it without regret.
But a humanoid bot? Saying goodbye could be tough. I already say "please" and "thank you" to Grok while talking to it in the car, and it doesn't even have a face! I can easily see coming to think of a humanoid bot as a friend, like I have felt about cats, and might cry if it has to be "put down." Yikes! So, no human faces please!
“I am now imagining a future robot rights movement. If that seems absurd, consider existing legal protections for animals and the movements that produced them. Animals are not humans either.”
The movements that apply concepts like morality and justice to animals is patently absurd (as would any parallel movement for robots).
Just curious: Do you believe it's okay to kick a dog or rape a sheep, or that people who do these things should not face any consequences? I'm guessing (er, hoping?) you don't believe that, in which case you concede that concepts like morality and justice do in fact apply to animals.
My go-to example of a robot I use every day is my dishwasher.
I have written about what would be required for a robot to take my job as an electrician. When thinking about that question, I always review whatever tasks I did that day, and ponder what a robot would need to be able to do to complete those same tasks in that same environment. A humanoid robot would be at a disadvantage, whereas a suite of non-humanoid robots might be able to work in concert more efficiently than I do as one person. (And of course, you'd need a second suite of robots for a second electrician, who is required or at least greatly helpful for many of the tasks I do.)
I don't think my job will be replaced by robots humanoid or otherwise any time soon, but in theory it's possible in the future.
My father is 91 years old. I would dearly love to get him a robot to fetch items ... books mostly ... from high shelves for him.
Well, what is one thing that drove innovation over the last few decades? Internet-accessible video and especially live-streaming? Answer: Porn. Without the proliferation of porn sites, especially the one where the customer can see and talk directly with a sex worker, we might not yet have e.g. Zoom and Facebook Live and whatnot.
It's quite possible that some of the big innovative leaps we see in robotics will be driven by the desire to sell/buy sex robots that are far more functional than e.g. blow-up dolls. They won't just do whatever sex thing their buyer wants, they'll move and talk in convincingly human ways for more realistic encounters. And hell, they may light their owner's cigarette and go off to make coffee and do some dishes afterward.
I don't know how far along that technology is at the moment, but a quick web search has some companies selling "sex dolls" for thousands of dollars that are supposed to not just be realistic in form, but also function. As the innovation proceeds there it will presumably work its way out into other functions where a "human-like presence" is desired -- school crossing guards, peppy/enthusiastic personnel at fast food counters, whatever.
Sex robots were part of what I was thinking of when I wrote "You would not want to copy it exactly, both because the materials and the constraints they imply are different and because the range of tasks is". The most fundamental task we are designed for is reproductive success via biological reproduction, which robots cannot do. I thought of offering the implication that humanoid robots might have genitals but not ovaries, testes, and wombs, decided to leave that point to here.
The self-driving hardware in your Tesla costs very little compared to the car as a whole (cameras are almost free, servos and actuators are mostly required for other safety systems). And doing it that way frees up a seat in the car.
*Minds* might be persons. Bodies are not. If your old robot wears out and you replace it, you haven't discarded a person - you've replaced a tool that the robot mind uses. You'd want to keep the mind anyway (it knows you and your tasks, etc.).
But I suspect robot minds are indeed persons. If not yet, then soon.
Did you ever read Anthony Boucher's story "Q.U.R."?
No, but it seems to be relevant as a rebuttal to my argument.
Is it webbed somewhere? Got a link?
I think if we gave robots unique faces that were human like, people would stop seeing them as disposable and more like pets. If every robot we interact with has the same face (as is the case with the major humanoid robot companies I've seen) they will likely be seen as disposable.
Even though they're disposable, they will likely have memories which are not. It is useful for a robot to know your preferences (where dishes go, what time you like your breakfast etc.).
I expect we will have both humanoid robots with human faces and bodies as well as ones with mechanical forms in the future, I expect mechanical looking ones will be more common.
My robot vacuum performs much better than a humanoid robot running a human vacuum.
Aa we think about what the robots will do, how should we be thinking about what they will enable?