About twenty years ago I was on a panel at a science fiction convention. The title was "Economics, SF's Weak Spot: So many SF worlds, only two main economic systems. What else might we come up with as theories of value and exchange?" The two systems referred to were presumably capitalism and socialism but within those classifications there is quite a wide range of possibilities. The Yugoslav system, for example, while nominally socialist looked rather more like a market economy in which the firms were worker co-ops. The market socialism proposed by Abba Lerner and Oskar Lange in the course of the calculation controversy of the early 20th century was a system in which the means of production belonged to the state but the state instructed the managers to play the game of pretending to be profit maximizing capitalists in order to take advantage of the decentralized control mechanism of the market. The anarcho-capitalist system I sketched in my
The thing about reputational systems in very large societies is that they make it easy for "cheaters" to abuse the system in the short term in a local area, then move on to a different area of the society and repeat their behavior. I suppose today, with the web, perhaps they would be caught out and followed (and "canceled"?) once they had plundered enough areas. (And perhaps that is why it is so hard to find much personal information about a great many "journalists" and "influencers". They don't want to be found out.)
Anyway, if the policing mechanism is getting a bad reputation for lack of reciprocity, keeping track of 'bad' individuals in a very large population would seem to be a major sticking point to the success fo gifting.
My personal experience is that, when used, it works pretty well in persistent groups with a good grapevine. But I've been on the receiving end of a serious, serial "cheater" who never seems to suffer. So . . .
One of my favorite science fiction stories is "And Then There Were None", 1951, expanded into the novel "The Great Explosion", 1961, by Eric Frank Russell. His "obligations" system fascinated me as a kid, but wouldn't work in any community over a few dozen or a few hundred people, and he sort of recognizes that in its internal "Idle Jack" story. But it's a fun read.
At one time I'd read just about everything he had written, but that doesn't sound familiar. However, it was over 50 years ago that I was reading his work, so . . .
I remember enjoying most of it, but little stnads out in my memory.
Consider the give and take of research, and writing and publishing research papers. An awful lot of give and take involved, and if you don't understand the game, you won't get far as a researcher, if no one wants to collaborate, review.
Have you ever tried developing a systematic categorization of possible economic frameworks? If so, how do you think it would look?
If I think about it, it ends up being along game theoretic lines. If I try to be more precise, my sketch looks like a description of the moves available to each "player" (individuals, the state), and the responses available for each move.
For instance, a free market includes one where there is no state, but there is property, and individuals may send some of their property for another individual, but they will try to ensure it is matched by a receipt of more valuable property (to the individual in question). But there are variants. Two or more individuals might opt to coordinate their moves, forming an organization (or a company or a family or...), in which they entrust approval of some or all such transactions to another member of their group. Another variant allows transactions where receipt is delayed - I give you $1000 today in return for $1050 in a month. Or even where receipt is not guaranteed - I give you some entertainment now, in the hopes that you toss me a few dollars if you enjoyed it, whether it's a dollar bill in my hat, or a donation to my Patreon.
One could try to systematize different versions of socialism or communism in a similar way. Eventually, I would hope to recognize patterns among them, use that to group them, and to discover new exchange frameworks in the combinations of patterns that I didn't see tried yet.
This could lead in turn to some interesting science fiction. I can't name an example from memory, but I would be surprised if no writer out there had tried to create a serious economic framework based on a sentient hivemind, for instance, or a symbiotic pair. Or a species whose sentience was hard for us to determine, such as a very large organism with no known other instances, no obvious means of communication, but nevertheless complex behavior.
I wonder if the income distribution in a gift economy would be more or less egalitarian than our own. I would bet less egalitarian.
Your income would not only depend on how productive you are, but also how good you are at leveraging a dense network of favors and IOUs this economy would create. Being a good worker and good politician seems like rare combination.
Such an economy wouldn't permit a single person to gain material wealth in that way, as it would be seen as anti-social. Instead, that person would gain honor and prestige, and likely some form of power. That person might become the village elder/mayor/king or some other form of lord. He would have responsibilities as well as benefits from this arrangement, because he would only hold the position because so many people valued what he has done and may be able to do again. If he used his position to abuse the people, he would lose the prestige and likely the position.
This system breaks down for larger groups, because a king can gain the support of a minority that also has power while abusing a majority. Imagine a king who takes care of his lords but taxes the people heavily. Those lords support the king because he takes care of them, and help keep the people in line despite the heavy taxes. Those lords probably also find ways to take care of their people, even though they are indirectly supporting the taxes that hurt those people. Because the social obligations are indirect, the system cannot work as intended. A king who saw the direct misery of his subjects would lose face if he didn't do something about it, but an impersonal king who doesn't live nearby can't be held accountable in that way.
Yes. My wife is Japanese and we lived there many years. She finds it a burden, and thinks some people abuse it in order to get things back that they want.
On the other hand, at most any significant life event, a wedding, or a birth, a long list of people all chip in serious amounts of money, cash gifts. A few dozen relatives all chipping in $1000 to a newlywed couple goes a long way.
Hobby focused forums are a bit like a gift economy . People freely give their time and expertise to help/inform others about the topic either as a gift or for the reputation in the community.
Some examples include fish keeping/aquatic plant forums, old computer forums (68kmla.org) and similar hobbies where challenging skills and obscure knowledge are needed/useful.
That's closer to the case of my friend spreading information on historical swordsmanship than to the gift exchange, where you give someone something in the expectation that he will reciprocate. Both are gift economies broadly defined but only the second is replacing ordinary exchange.
The medieval parties sound really fun -- one of the things I enjoy about the meetups that have sprung up around readers of Scott Alexander's blog is that they feel a bit like what I imagine an 18th century philosophy salon might have been like. Getting "reputation points" and "social capital" for the costs incurred by hosting is totally worth it, in my opinion, although I'm not sure I'd like to go as far as groups like the Salish do in terms of giving everything away at gatherings, I do wish bigger and more advanced societies could manage to do better with informal things like "paying it forward" and "contributing to one's community."
SCA events are not that similar. The big ones are usually feasts or tournaments, often camping events, occasionally an event centered on classes. There are also smaller events such as the Renaissance dance practice my wife and daughter go to every week. The big events end up as something between a medieval themed costume party and a joint fantasy, usually closer to the former.
My wife and I have a self-published book on our SCA interests, including about 300 period recipes, instructions for making things, poetry, SCA philosophy and much else:
This gift economy seems similar to bartering but transcends it since there’s no explicit agreement of exchange. It relies instead on a spirit of giving, respect, and honoring someone’s contribution despite no obligation to do so. In short, it depends on the best qualities of humanity, so it definitively could only survive (on a widespread scale) in SF. Or in a honor society that existed in some of the Native American cultures that you reference. Sadly.
It exists in modern American culture in contexts such as dinner invitations. I suspect that its existence in science fiction fandom or SCA is paralleled in other hobby groups.
It doesn't require a spirit of giving and respect although those may help. The essential thing is the willingness to fulfill an obligation that you are not being forced to fulfill. And even that doesn't have to be a moral commitment — it could be recognizing reputational incentives.
I think a lot of American culture is actually forms of gift economies. When you help your nephew get a job, that's a type of gift with no specific expectations of repayment. You want your nephew to succeed, and on some level to think highly of you. When you don't help your lay-about cousin get a job, it's because they are not fulfilling their obligations to society and are not socially worthy of the gift.
I think that's why so many people have an almost visceral reaction to people who abuse welfare or even just use public assistance if they are healthy and capable of work.
The thing about reputational systems in very large societies is that they make it easy for "cheaters" to abuse the system in the short term in a local area, then move on to a different area of the society and repeat their behavior. I suppose today, with the web, perhaps they would be caught out and followed (and "canceled"?) once they had plundered enough areas. (And perhaps that is why it is so hard to find much personal information about a great many "journalists" and "influencers". They don't want to be found out.)
Anyway, if the policing mechanism is getting a bad reputation for lack of reciprocity, keeping track of 'bad' individuals in a very large population would seem to be a major sticking point to the success fo gifting.
My personal experience is that, when used, it works pretty well in persistent groups with a good grapevine. But I've been on the receiving end of a serious, serial "cheater" who never seems to suffer. So . . .
One of my favorite science fiction stories is "And Then There Were None", 1951, expanded into the novel "The Great Explosion", 1961, by Eric Frank Russell. His "obligations" system fascinated me as a kid, but wouldn't work in any community over a few dozen or a few hundred people, and he sort of recognizes that in its internal "Idle Jack" story. But it's a fun read.
At one time I'd read just about everything he had written, but that doesn't sound familiar. However, it was over 50 years ago that I was reading his work, so . . .
I remember enjoying most of it, but little stnads out in my memory.
The Great Explosion is free online. The part from the short story begins about halfway through (search for "k22g").
Consider the give and take of research, and writing and publishing research papers. An awful lot of give and take involved, and if you don't understand the game, you won't get far as a researcher, if no one wants to collaborate, review.
Have you ever tried developing a systematic categorization of possible economic frameworks? If so, how do you think it would look?
If I think about it, it ends up being along game theoretic lines. If I try to be more precise, my sketch looks like a description of the moves available to each "player" (individuals, the state), and the responses available for each move.
For instance, a free market includes one where there is no state, but there is property, and individuals may send some of their property for another individual, but they will try to ensure it is matched by a receipt of more valuable property (to the individual in question). But there are variants. Two or more individuals might opt to coordinate their moves, forming an organization (or a company or a family or...), in which they entrust approval of some or all such transactions to another member of their group. Another variant allows transactions where receipt is delayed - I give you $1000 today in return for $1050 in a month. Or even where receipt is not guaranteed - I give you some entertainment now, in the hopes that you toss me a few dollars if you enjoyed it, whether it's a dollar bill in my hat, or a donation to my Patreon.
One could try to systematize different versions of socialism or communism in a similar way. Eventually, I would hope to recognize patterns among them, use that to group them, and to discover new exchange frameworks in the combinations of patterns that I didn't see tried yet.
This could lead in turn to some interesting science fiction. I can't name an example from memory, but I would be surprised if no writer out there had tried to create a serious economic framework based on a sentient hivemind, for instance, or a symbiotic pair. Or a species whose sentience was hard for us to determine, such as a very large organism with no known other instances, no obvious means of communication, but nevertheless complex behavior.
I wonder if the income distribution in a gift economy would be more or less egalitarian than our own. I would bet less egalitarian.
Your income would not only depend on how productive you are, but also how good you are at leveraging a dense network of favors and IOUs this economy would create. Being a good worker and good politician seems like rare combination.
Such an economy wouldn't permit a single person to gain material wealth in that way, as it would be seen as anti-social. Instead, that person would gain honor and prestige, and likely some form of power. That person might become the village elder/mayor/king or some other form of lord. He would have responsibilities as well as benefits from this arrangement, because he would only hold the position because so many people valued what he has done and may be able to do again. If he used his position to abuse the people, he would lose the prestige and likely the position.
This system breaks down for larger groups, because a king can gain the support of a minority that also has power while abusing a majority. Imagine a king who takes care of his lords but taxes the people heavily. Those lords support the king because he takes care of them, and help keep the people in line despite the heavy taxes. Those lords probably also find ways to take care of their people, even though they are indirectly supporting the taxes that hurt those people. Because the social obligations are indirect, the system cannot work as intended. A king who saw the direct misery of his subjects would lose face if he didn't do something about it, but an impersonal king who doesn't live nearby can't be held accountable in that way.
My understanding and personal observations are that numerous forms of gift exchange are still very common in Japanese society.
Yes. My wife is Japanese and we lived there many years. She finds it a burden, and thinks some people abuse it in order to get things back that they want.
On the other hand, at most any significant life event, a wedding, or a birth, a long list of people all chip in serious amounts of money, cash gifts. A few dozen relatives all chipping in $1000 to a newlywed couple goes a long way.
Hobby focused forums are a bit like a gift economy . People freely give their time and expertise to help/inform others about the topic either as a gift or for the reputation in the community.
Some examples include fish keeping/aquatic plant forums, old computer forums (68kmla.org) and similar hobbies where challenging skills and obscure knowledge are needed/useful.
That's closer to the case of my friend spreading information on historical swordsmanship than to the gift exchange, where you give someone something in the expectation that he will reciprocate. Both are gift economies broadly defined but only the second is replacing ordinary exchange.
Emotional support works almost entirely on a gift economy.
The medieval parties sound really fun -- one of the things I enjoy about the meetups that have sprung up around readers of Scott Alexander's blog is that they feel a bit like what I imagine an 18th century philosophy salon might have been like. Getting "reputation points" and "social capital" for the costs incurred by hosting is totally worth it, in my opinion, although I'm not sure I'd like to go as far as groups like the Salish do in terms of giving everything away at gatherings, I do wish bigger and more advanced societies could manage to do better with informal things like "paying it forward" and "contributing to one's community."
We do a meetup, originally for readers of SSC, at our house in San Jose, ideally once a month, in practice less regularly than that. The next one will probably be 12/9. http://www.daviddfriedman.com/SSC%20Meetups%20announcement.html
SCA events are not that similar. The big ones are usually feasts or tournaments, often camping events, occasionally an event centered on classes. There are also smaller events such as the Renaissance dance practice my wife and daughter go to every week. The big events end up as something between a medieval themed costume party and a joint fantasy, usually closer to the former.
My wife and I have a self-published book on our SCA interests, including about 300 period recipes, instructions for making things, poetry, SCA philosophy and much else:
http://www.daviddfriedman.com/Medieval/Misc10/Misc10.pdf
The Viking example is pretty interesting. Do we know if the Viking economy was primarily gift economics or in part?
This gift economy seems similar to bartering but transcends it since there’s no explicit agreement of exchange. It relies instead on a spirit of giving, respect, and honoring someone’s contribution despite no obligation to do so. In short, it depends on the best qualities of humanity, so it definitively could only survive (on a widespread scale) in SF. Or in a honor society that existed in some of the Native American cultures that you reference. Sadly.
It exists in modern American culture in contexts such as dinner invitations. I suspect that its existence in science fiction fandom or SCA is paralleled in other hobby groups.
It doesn't require a spirit of giving and respect although those may help. The essential thing is the willingness to fulfill an obligation that you are not being forced to fulfill. And even that doesn't have to be a moral commitment — it could be recognizing reputational incentives.
I think a lot of American culture is actually forms of gift economies. When you help your nephew get a job, that's a type of gift with no specific expectations of repayment. You want your nephew to succeed, and on some level to think highly of you. When you don't help your lay-about cousin get a job, it's because they are not fulfilling their obligations to society and are not socially worthy of the gift.
I think that's why so many people have an almost visceral reaction to people who abuse welfare or even just use public assistance if they are healthy and capable of work.